JAZZOSPHERE - ISSUE 35 (AUGUST 2008)
JazzoSphere: Your label could be considered as a means to introduce new
artists. For instance, I Recently discovered Yui Onodera’s music. Could you tell
us about his music and about “Suisei”?
DL: I first heard Yui's work in 2006 through his own label called Critical Path. It
was a CDR release entitled "Entropy". I obtained it through the Drone Records web
shop. Funny enough, Yui contacted me a couple months later, saying that he had
a work "that wanted me to hear it"... Well, I thought if the work wanted me to hear
it, then I should probably pay attention to it, right? So, I had Yui send me the
demo of what later would become "Suisei". Originally, I had offered to make it a
double CD release, with the second disc being a CD re-issue of "Entropy", but I
had just released two very expensive releases before that, so I had to keep the next
few releases simple and more affordable in order to keep the release schedule
moving at a decent pace than the first half of 2007, which was very slow due to
time consuming delays with the release pertaining to Yasujiro Ozu. Yui's music
could often be simply described as "atmospheric ambient", but what distinguishes
his work from many other artists are the subtle nuances that cannot be readily
conveyed with words. Yui also doesn't take the same approach with every release.
With "Suisei", one has to experience it alone and/or in a quiet environment,
otherwise the music could simply go in one ear and out the other. Unlike some of
Yui's other releases, "Suisei" does not feature loops or repetitive elements in the
work. Instead it moves fluidly from one section to the next toward a culminating
"event" that leaves an impression on the listener's subconscious that, again, is
hard to explain with words.
JazzoSphere: You participate in collaborative projects around specific theme
(Autumn Soundscapes, Airport Symphony…). Is confronting your views to other
artists' a source of inspiration? What's your personal, specific approach dealing
with these projects?
DL: The concept obviously has to appeal to me before I will participate in a
various artist project initiated by another label, and I only initiate projects on
and/OAR that have particular conceptual intentions that require new pieces to be
created specifically for them. In other words, I don't produce standard label
showcase compilations, and as much as many people tend to habitually view
them as such, each release is a project, and each project should be judged as a
whole work instead of as a collection of separate unrelated works. Unlike many
various artist label compilations which are primarily created for promotional
purposes, the intention for each and/OAR project is to artistically draw attention to
the conceptual subject matter at hand and to inspire people to investigate it
further.As an artist, I tend to be a chameleon and approach each project
differently. If all the tracks were ever compiled together on one disc, I think it
would still sound like a various artist collection! For me, relating to, addressing and
accurately conveying each subject through sound work is far more important than
maintaining some sort of consistent artist identity. Ironically, with my own projects,
I usually invite artists based on their previous work and how well it seems to
connect with each subject. More often than not, my intuition is correct and the
artists do have a meaningful connection to the subject matter in uncanny ways.
JazzoSphere: You don’t publish your own works very often on and/OAR. Could you
explain why?
DL: Yes, for several reasons. The main one is that I'm always too busy with other
artists' releases.Fortunately, I have enough invitations from other labels to keep me
busy. And even if that were not the case, I would still not release so many CDs of
my own work because I'm just as fussy and critical about considering my own work
for a/O as I am with the demos from other people that I receive. Even more so
today than I was six or seven years ago.
JazzoSphere: Heliotrope is your very next project. Could you present it?
DL: Well, I'm really not sure if it will be my next release or not because I also have
a vinyl record planned with Elevator Bath entitled "Akasha_For Record". After
being delayed for more than a year with Cherry Music, "Heliotrope" might end up
becoming a joint release with a/O. If this doesn't happen, then I might try to offer it
to another label or just release it on a/O without another label because I actually
feel very strongly about this one and don't want to see it languish on the shelf
indefinitely.
JazzoSphere: What are your upcoming projects for 2008 (CDs, shows …)?
DL: The main ongoing project is always and/OAR. And since there are now two
new divisions of the label, I need to make sure a wider demographic of people
know about them because they will cover music outside the spectrum of the main
division of a/O. "either/OAR" will mostly focus on acoustic instrument / object-
based improvisation and composition, while "mOAR" will focus on well-crafted
genre blurring electronic music. As for my own work, apart from what I already
mentioned, I've got tracks coming up on several various artist projects (Elevator
Bath, Critical Path, Keshhhhhh, and a/O). My next performance is to be part of a
label showcase event for Elevator Bath here in Seattle on August 16th, 2008. The
other artists will include Matt Shoemaker, Adam Pacione, Rick Reed, and Jim
Haynes.
(Interview conducted by Sébastien Moig)
JazzoSphere: Your label could be considered as a means to introduce new
artists. For instance, I Recently discovered Yui Onodera’s music. Could you tell
us about his music and about “Suisei”?
DL: I first heard Yui's work in 2006 through his own label called Critical Path. It
was a CDR release entitled "Entropy". I obtained it through the Drone Records web
shop. Funny enough, Yui contacted me a couple months later, saying that he had
a work "that wanted me to hear it"... Well, I thought if the work wanted me to hear
it, then I should probably pay attention to it, right? So, I had Yui send me the
demo of what later would become "Suisei". Originally, I had offered to make it a
double CD release, with the second disc being a CD re-issue of "Entropy", but I
had just released two very expensive releases before that, so I had to keep the next
few releases simple and more affordable in order to keep the release schedule
moving at a decent pace than the first half of 2007, which was very slow due to
time consuming delays with the release pertaining to Yasujiro Ozu. Yui's music
could often be simply described as "atmospheric ambient", but what distinguishes
his work from many other artists are the subtle nuances that cannot be readily
conveyed with words. Yui also doesn't take the same approach with every release.
With "Suisei", one has to experience it alone and/or in a quiet environment,
otherwise the music could simply go in one ear and out the other. Unlike some of
Yui's other releases, "Suisei" does not feature loops or repetitive elements in the
work. Instead it moves fluidly from one section to the next toward a culminating
"event" that leaves an impression on the listener's subconscious that, again, is
hard to explain with words.
JazzoSphere: You participate in collaborative projects around specific theme
(Autumn Soundscapes, Airport Symphony…). Is confronting your views to other
artists' a source of inspiration? What's your personal, specific approach dealing
with these projects?
DL: The concept obviously has to appeal to me before I will participate in a
various artist project initiated by another label, and I only initiate projects on
and/OAR that have particular conceptual intentions that require new pieces to be
created specifically for them. In other words, I don't produce standard label
showcase compilations, and as much as many people tend to habitually view
them as such, each release is a project, and each project should be judged as a
whole work instead of as a collection of separate unrelated works. Unlike many
various artist label compilations which are primarily created for promotional
purposes, the intention for each and/OAR project is to artistically draw attention to
the conceptual subject matter at hand and to inspire people to investigate it
further.As an artist, I tend to be a chameleon and approach each project
differently. If all the tracks were ever compiled together on one disc, I think it
would still sound like a various artist collection! For me, relating to, addressing and
accurately conveying each subject through sound work is far more important than
maintaining some sort of consistent artist identity. Ironically, with my own projects,
I usually invite artists based on their previous work and how well it seems to
connect with each subject. More often than not, my intuition is correct and the
artists do have a meaningful connection to the subject matter in uncanny ways.
JazzoSphere: You don’t publish your own works very often on and/OAR. Could you
explain why?
DL: Yes, for several reasons. The main one is that I'm always too busy with other
artists' releases.Fortunately, I have enough invitations from other labels to keep me
busy. And even if that were not the case, I would still not release so many CDs of
my own work because I'm just as fussy and critical about considering my own work
for a/O as I am with the demos from other people that I receive. Even more so
today than I was six or seven years ago.
JazzoSphere: Heliotrope is your very next project. Could you present it?
DL: Well, I'm really not sure if it will be my next release or not because I also have
a vinyl record planned with Elevator Bath entitled "Akasha_For Record". After
being delayed for more than a year with Cherry Music, "Heliotrope" might end up
becoming a joint release with a/O. If this doesn't happen, then I might try to offer it
to another label or just release it on a/O without another label because I actually
feel very strongly about this one and don't want to see it languish on the shelf
indefinitely.
JazzoSphere: What are your upcoming projects for 2008 (CDs, shows …)?
DL: The main ongoing project is always and/OAR. And since there are now two
new divisions of the label, I need to make sure a wider demographic of people
know about them because they will cover music outside the spectrum of the main
division of a/O. "either/OAR" will mostly focus on acoustic instrument / object-
based improvisation and composition, while "mOAR" will focus on well-crafted
genre blurring electronic music. As for my own work, apart from what I already
mentioned, I've got tracks coming up on several various artist projects (Elevator
Bath, Critical Path, Keshhhhhh, and a/O). My next performance is to be part of a
label showcase event for Elevator Bath here in Seattle on August 16th, 2008. The
other artists will include Matt Shoemaker, Adam Pacione, Rick Reed, and Jim
Haynes.
(Interview conducted by Sébastien Moig)
TANNER MENARD BLOG (FEBRUARY 2009)
TM: You have answered this in other interviews, but for the sake of clarity, could
you tell me a little about your musical background and how your work as a
publisher and artist evolved the way that it did?
DL: I had an early interest in classical music and fine arts as a child, so this
probably set the foundation for the pursuit of sound art, graphic design and
curatorial publishing later on. I had eventually developed an interest in
production and recording labels which lead to starting a label called Manna in
1990 with the manager of a band I was involved with at the time. After that came
a label called æ, which was started in 1994 with another friend. In 2000 I started a
short-lived label called Overheard And Rendered of which and/OAR was the sub-
label. My current sound work is a natural progression from early bedroom /
basement tapes of electronic / ambient / experimental music that I created while
playing in various rock-oriented bands. It’s funny how the sub-activity to rock music
has turned into the primary activity, with rock music currently not in the picture.
TM: Can you tell me about some of the music you are really excited about
releasing in the next year? What draws you to it?
DL: Of course I’m excited about all of it, but the new either/OAR division is
probably where the most excitement is right now. So far, four stellar releases from
Jim Denley & Kim Myhr, Dropp Ensemble, Olivia Block & Kyle Bruckmann and
Tomoko Sauvage. With the main division of a/O, there is the upcoming double CD
various artist project for Michelangelo Antonioni; a double CD release by Richard
Garet called “Four”; a triple CD release by Luigi Turra that will feature a better
mastered version of “Enso” a longer version of “Ancient.Silence” and an
unreleased third part of this trilogy called “Ki” ; and a field recording release by
Ernst Karel entitled “Heard Laboratories.” For the mOAR division there are great
upcoming CDs from Billy Gomberg, Marihiko Hara and a fantastic departure
release from Art Bleek who is usually well known in house / techno / dance circles.
2009 promises to be solid for the label, so I hope everyone will give everything a
chance with open ears and an open mind.
TM: What are your thoughts on the music industry as it is today?
DL: My thoughts are on my personal goals, not so much on what the music
industry is doing. I try to stay informed as to what is going on, but don’t buy the
doom and gloom that people get addicted to. It may sound corny, but people
need to be the change they want to see in the world. Everything else will fall into
place. Really.
TM: How do you think that the ambient/experimental genre can survive in the
current economic crunch, and do you have any advice for young musicians
coming up within this genre about thriving as an ambient artist in today’s world?
DL: It’s your attitude and outlook on life that makes the difference. Even people
who work for major labels are affected by this. Micro / macro - it all works the same
way. “As above, so below.”
TM: Can you say a word or two about how your spirituality and your work as a label
owner and artist coincide if they do at all?
DL: Like with everything else, they do coincide. I don’t subscribe to a particular
religion, but I do believe in a universal life force and in universal principles which
affect every aspect of our lives according to the actions and decisions we make.
TM: and/OAR and its sister labels have released a host of really amazing artists.
Can you say a word or two about how you attracted these artists to your label
initially?
DL: First, either/OAR and mOAR are not completely different labels from and/OAR
as the term “sister labels” would indicate. and/OAR is divided into three sections.
For example: even though the government has different divisions within itself, they
are all still considered part of the government. In other words, there are three
divisions within and/OAR, not two divisions in addition to and/OAR. The reason
why I bother clarifying this point is to avoid proprietary complaints from other
labels (or companies) with similar sounding names. You will notice that the name
“and/OAR” appears on all the releases, regardless of the division. This is why.
As for the actual question, you would have to ask the artists why they sent me their
demos, although I would imagine that they sent them to other places at the same
time. Perhaps it’s because I said “yes” before the other labels did? ;o)
TM: Many artists are gripped by personal fear. In our conversations you have said
a lot about overcoming fear. Would you share with the readers some thoughts
about staying focused and believing in yourself enough to create?
DL: OK, but at the risk of sounding like a self-help “guru…” The most basic and
important thing is to stay focused on the desired outcome of any pursuit. Forget
about undesired outcomes. That which we focus our attention and energy on the
most, will eventually happen. Pay attention to your thought patterns. Remove
negative or self-defeatist thoughts and replace them with affirmations of
accomplishing your goals. For example: instead of saying “I’ll never get
anywhere,” say something like “I am creating great work that many people want to
hear.” It’s also important to fuel these thoughts with positive emotions that back up
your words. You have to really feel it in order for it to happen. An example of NOT
feeling what you are saying is when someone asks you how you are doing and you
automatically say “fine” when inside you feel bored, sad or want to rip somebody a
new one. Know that you will accomplish your goal, but also stay open to
opportunities that come your way, no matter how unrelated they may seem. Of
course if a situation strongly feels wrong, then don’t do it, but our lives correspond
to what we “put out there,” so keep that in mind.
TM: Would you write a short haiku that sums up Dale Lloyd?
DL: OK, for what it’s worth…
There, an open book.
Full pages await the sky.
Sunlight increases.
TM: Thank you Dale, for your beautiful haiku and your inspiring words. All the best
to you and your labels in 2009 and beyond. Your presence here on this blog is
much appreciated. Please help support Dale and and/OAR by checking out his
impressive collection of music available for purchase.
TM: You have answered this in other interviews, but for the sake of clarity, could
you tell me a little about your musical background and how your work as a
publisher and artist evolved the way that it did?
DL: I had an early interest in classical music and fine arts as a child, so this
probably set the foundation for the pursuit of sound art, graphic design and
curatorial publishing later on. I had eventually developed an interest in
production and recording labels which lead to starting a label called Manna in
1990 with the manager of a band I was involved with at the time. After that came
a label called æ, which was started in 1994 with another friend. In 2000 I started a
short-lived label called Overheard And Rendered of which and/OAR was the sub-
label. My current sound work is a natural progression from early bedroom /
basement tapes of electronic / ambient / experimental music that I created while
playing in various rock-oriented bands. It’s funny how the sub-activity to rock music
has turned into the primary activity, with rock music currently not in the picture.
TM: Can you tell me about some of the music you are really excited about
releasing in the next year? What draws you to it?
DL: Of course I’m excited about all of it, but the new either/OAR division is
probably where the most excitement is right now. So far, four stellar releases from
Jim Denley & Kim Myhr, Dropp Ensemble, Olivia Block & Kyle Bruckmann and
Tomoko Sauvage. With the main division of a/O, there is the upcoming double CD
various artist project for Michelangelo Antonioni; a double CD release by Richard
Garet called “Four”; a triple CD release by Luigi Turra that will feature a better
mastered version of “Enso” a longer version of “Ancient.Silence” and an
unreleased third part of this trilogy called “Ki” ; and a field recording release by
Ernst Karel entitled “Heard Laboratories.” For the mOAR division there are great
upcoming CDs from Billy Gomberg, Marihiko Hara and a fantastic departure
release from Art Bleek who is usually well known in house / techno / dance circles.
2009 promises to be solid for the label, so I hope everyone will give everything a
chance with open ears and an open mind.
TM: What are your thoughts on the music industry as it is today?
DL: My thoughts are on my personal goals, not so much on what the music
industry is doing. I try to stay informed as to what is going on, but don’t buy the
doom and gloom that people get addicted to. It may sound corny, but people
need to be the change they want to see in the world. Everything else will fall into
place. Really.
TM: How do you think that the ambient/experimental genre can survive in the
current economic crunch, and do you have any advice for young musicians
coming up within this genre about thriving as an ambient artist in today’s world?
DL: It’s your attitude and outlook on life that makes the difference. Even people
who work for major labels are affected by this. Micro / macro - it all works the same
way. “As above, so below.”
TM: Can you say a word or two about how your spirituality and your work as a label
owner and artist coincide if they do at all?
DL: Like with everything else, they do coincide. I don’t subscribe to a particular
religion, but I do believe in a universal life force and in universal principles which
affect every aspect of our lives according to the actions and decisions we make.
TM: and/OAR and its sister labels have released a host of really amazing artists.
Can you say a word or two about how you attracted these artists to your label
initially?
DL: First, either/OAR and mOAR are not completely different labels from and/OAR
as the term “sister labels” would indicate. and/OAR is divided into three sections.
For example: even though the government has different divisions within itself, they
are all still considered part of the government. In other words, there are three
divisions within and/OAR, not two divisions in addition to and/OAR. The reason
why I bother clarifying this point is to avoid proprietary complaints from other
labels (or companies) with similar sounding names. You will notice that the name
“and/OAR” appears on all the releases, regardless of the division. This is why.
As for the actual question, you would have to ask the artists why they sent me their
demos, although I would imagine that they sent them to other places at the same
time. Perhaps it’s because I said “yes” before the other labels did? ;o)
TM: Many artists are gripped by personal fear. In our conversations you have said
a lot about overcoming fear. Would you share with the readers some thoughts
about staying focused and believing in yourself enough to create?
DL: OK, but at the risk of sounding like a self-help “guru…” The most basic and
important thing is to stay focused on the desired outcome of any pursuit. Forget
about undesired outcomes. That which we focus our attention and energy on the
most, will eventually happen. Pay attention to your thought patterns. Remove
negative or self-defeatist thoughts and replace them with affirmations of
accomplishing your goals. For example: instead of saying “I’ll never get
anywhere,” say something like “I am creating great work that many people want to
hear.” It’s also important to fuel these thoughts with positive emotions that back up
your words. You have to really feel it in order for it to happen. An example of NOT
feeling what you are saying is when someone asks you how you are doing and you
automatically say “fine” when inside you feel bored, sad or want to rip somebody a
new one. Know that you will accomplish your goal, but also stay open to
opportunities that come your way, no matter how unrelated they may seem. Of
course if a situation strongly feels wrong, then don’t do it, but our lives correspond
to what we “put out there,” so keep that in mind.
TM: Would you write a short haiku that sums up Dale Lloyd?
DL: OK, for what it’s worth…
There, an open book.
Full pages await the sky.
Sunlight increases.
TM: Thank you Dale, for your beautiful haiku and your inspiring words. All the best
to you and your labels in 2009 and beyond. Your presence here on this blog is
much appreciated. Please help support Dale and and/OAR by checking out his
impressive collection of music available for purchase.
TOKAFI (JULY 2008)
Stability is a double-edged sword: Too little of it evokes chaos, too much of it
guarantees boredoom. Over the last eight years, Dale Lloyd has managed to tread
the fine line between these two extremes. Between 1984 and the new millennium,
his life was marked by sharp contrasts and constant changes: A member of various
Rock-oriented bands and recording projects, Lloyd founded record company
Manna in 1990. It lasted just two years. His second stint in label-activities survived
one year longer: æ, an entrepreneurial and artistic collaboration with Clark Von
Trotha, was closely connected to projects like "Labradford", "Windy And Carl" and
"His Name Is Alive". It put Seattle firmly on the Sound Art- and Experimental map
only months before Grunge exploded. With demos sent in by some major acts
lying promisingly on their desk, æ died quietly and left a vacuum in its wake. For
Lloyd, however, it also offered a fresh start. Influenced by a love for field
recordings and making use of states of "hypnogogic mindfulness", he began
publishing music under his own name for the first time in the year 2000. It proved
to be a fruitful direction: Lloyd's environmental noises recomposed a unique,
mystical and mysterious world of sound, a naive and dreamy space of refuge.
Intertwined with these delicate murmurs, discreet drones caressed the cool air of a
forest of associations and whispers. In sync with his own output, he built his most
recent record company, AND/OAR into a focal point on the field recording scene.
The continuity of the label has secured it a prominent position, with its
breathtaking packaging designs grabbing headlines worldwide. All the while, the
various sublabels, diversifying into Pop territory among others, have kept Lloyd's
vision stimulatingly eclectic and surprising. It is a well-balanced combination
unified by the will to undiscriminatingly integrate various influences and creating
music of timeless value.
Tokafi: Hi! How are you? Where are you?
DL: Hello! I’m in my office in Seattle listening to an upcoming release by Yuki
Kaneko.
Tokafi: What’s on your schedule right now?
DL: I just released the first CD from the new mOAR subdivision by Mou, Lips!
entitled “Untree”. Currently at the manufacturer are releases by ºSone (Yannick
Dauby, Christophe Havard & Hughes Germain) entitled, “Passerelle” and a joint
release with Alluvial Recordings and FO A RM Projects for Arsenije Jovanovic
entitled, “Galiola – Works For Radio, 1967 – 2000”. I’ve got a very busy year ahead
with a lot of releases planned.
As for my own work, there is a much delayed CD to come out on Cherry Music in
Japan, my first solo vinyl LP (for Elevator Bath), and I’ve been trying to finish tracks
for a 3” disc on The Locus Of (based in the UK), plus tracks for compilations from
Elevator Bath and Yui Onodera’s Critical Path label. There are other works in
progress as well, but nothing else slated for release yet.
Tokafi: What’s your view on the music scene at present? Is there a crisis?
DL: Generally, I believe that there is only a crisis for those who look for a crisis,
and I think that one thing that has kept experimental music from gaining wider
acceptance are the attitudes of self limitation that have been inherent within the
community for a very long time. When people continue to look at their own music
as having a “limited appeal” then this is exactly what they are setting up for
themselves. This doesn’t necessarily mean they have to change their music style;
it just means that by shifting their focus and changing their attitude, they start to
attract conditions that will allow for a different outcome to what they are trying to
accomplish. The reason why I can say this with any kind of confidence is because
of my own experiences in the matter. Granted, some people take pride in the fact
that their work only appeals to a certain group of people, so that would obviously
be their choice.
As for the situation of MP3 blogs giving away entire albums without permission
(regardless of the label or artist’s requests to remove them), while on the surface
this inconsiderate kind of activity seems like it might pose a threat to the financial
support of recording labels and self-releasing artists, I spent time thinking more
about it (after some initial misgivings) and concluded that in the long term, there
is nothing (for me at least) to worry about. Especially in light of what I just said
about shaping your own reality.
Tokafi: Do you see yourself as part of a certain tradition or as part of a movement?
DL: Sure. So far, it appears to be somewhere in the realm of sound art and field
recordings.
Tokafi: What, would you say, are the factors of your creativity? What “inspires” you?
DL: Cinema and natural sonic phenomena are two things that have long inspired
me, but I’m not afraid to admit that other people’s sound work inspires and
somehow informs what I do as well. I don’t buy it when certain artists say they don’t
listen to other artists who work within their own genre. If everyone were so self
absorbed and aloof to what else was going on out there, then none of us would get
anywhere. My belief is that everything we are exposed to has an influence on us
whether we are conscious of it or not. If we like something, then we might
incorporate some aspect of it. If we don’t like something, then we try to stay away
from it. Both situations influence us to make a particular decision about our own
work. This is why my standard answer to this type of question is “everything”.
Tokafi: How would you describe your method of composing?
DL: Some of my best work comes from being in a state of what I term “hypnogogic
mindfulness”, which means that when I drift into a half awake, half meditative
state, my conscious mind gets out of the way and lets things happen. I also work
well in a “stream of conscious” type of way where everything flows quickly,
naturally and without thinking about it.
Tokafi: What does the term „new“ mean to you in connection with music?
DL: It means "something I haven’t heard before”, which is NOT to be confused with
“something that hasn’t been done before” which is a pointless claim to make and a
pointless stance to take. Who’s to say what has never been done before? Yet one
could say that all music is a perpetual evolution or variation of that which came
before it, which would technically render everything as “new”.
Tokafi: Do you feel an artist has a certain duty towards anyone but himself? Or to
put it differently: Should art have a political/social or any other aspect apart from
a personal sensation?
DL: Socially, I believe recording labels that charge money for their releases
should feel a sense of responsibility if they are to serve as trusted filters in deciding
which music (of their chosen genre) to make available to the public. Some would
say that music by nature is “political”, but I think everyone should have the right to
choose whether their work serves that purpose or not. And when I say “political” I
refer to things like elections, national and regional concerns, wars, environmental
issues, civil rights issues, etc.
Tokafi: How, would you say, could non-mainstream forms of music reach wider
audiences without sacrificing their soul?
DL: As I’ve said, I think it begins with what an individual thinks is possible. Forget
about what history or prior experience has shown, or what the so-called “experts in
the field” have to say. It’s really up to the individual and what kind of outcome they
choose to remain focused on. Anything is possible.
Tokfai: You are given the position of artistic director of a festival. What would be
on your program?
DL: Can I dream? Give me the budget and staff to make it happen and and/OAR
(either/OAR & mOAR) would host a festival featuring performances, sound
installations and film. I might invite the following, among others:
(Performances) Oren Ambarchi, Steinbrüchel, Eliane Radigue, Francisco Lopez,
Steve Roden, Billy Gomberg, Yuki Kaneko, Celer, Corey Fuller & Opitope, Kim
Myhr, Kai Fagaschinski, Toshimaru Nakamura, Arve Henriksen, BJ Nilsen, David
Stackenas, Martin Küchen, Matt Shoemaker, Günter Müller/Tomas Korber/Jason
Kahn, Werner Dafeldecker, Ryuichi Sakamoto & Fennesz and or Ryuichi
Sakamoto & Christopher Willits.
(Installations) Rolf Julius, Steve Roden, Christina Kubisch, Brian Eno, Marc
Behrens, CM Von Hausswolff, Akio Suzuki, Miki Yui, Robin Minard, Yannick
Dauby/Wan-Shuen Tsai, Steve Peters, Skoltz_Kolgen.
(Film/Performance) Jurgen Rebel/Thomas Koner, Aono Jikken Ensemble, Ivan
Palacky & Vera Lukasona, Kamran Sadeghi, Akira Rabelais & Stephan Mathieu,
Phill Niblock.
Tokafi: Many artists dream of a “magnum opus”. Do you have a vision of what yours
would sound like?
DL: Nope
Stability is a double-edged sword: Too little of it evokes chaos, too much of it
guarantees boredoom. Over the last eight years, Dale Lloyd has managed to tread
the fine line between these two extremes. Between 1984 and the new millennium,
his life was marked by sharp contrasts and constant changes: A member of various
Rock-oriented bands and recording projects, Lloyd founded record company
Manna in 1990. It lasted just two years. His second stint in label-activities survived
one year longer: æ, an entrepreneurial and artistic collaboration with Clark Von
Trotha, was closely connected to projects like "Labradford", "Windy And Carl" and
"His Name Is Alive". It put Seattle firmly on the Sound Art- and Experimental map
only months before Grunge exploded. With demos sent in by some major acts
lying promisingly on their desk, æ died quietly and left a vacuum in its wake. For
Lloyd, however, it also offered a fresh start. Influenced by a love for field
recordings and making use of states of "hypnogogic mindfulness", he began
publishing music under his own name for the first time in the year 2000. It proved
to be a fruitful direction: Lloyd's environmental noises recomposed a unique,
mystical and mysterious world of sound, a naive and dreamy space of refuge.
Intertwined with these delicate murmurs, discreet drones caressed the cool air of a
forest of associations and whispers. In sync with his own output, he built his most
recent record company, AND/OAR into a focal point on the field recording scene.
The continuity of the label has secured it a prominent position, with its
breathtaking packaging designs grabbing headlines worldwide. All the while, the
various sublabels, diversifying into Pop territory among others, have kept Lloyd's
vision stimulatingly eclectic and surprising. It is a well-balanced combination
unified by the will to undiscriminatingly integrate various influences and creating
music of timeless value.
Tokafi: Hi! How are you? Where are you?
DL: Hello! I’m in my office in Seattle listening to an upcoming release by Yuki
Kaneko.
Tokafi: What’s on your schedule right now?
DL: I just released the first CD from the new mOAR subdivision by Mou, Lips!
entitled “Untree”. Currently at the manufacturer are releases by ºSone (Yannick
Dauby, Christophe Havard & Hughes Germain) entitled, “Passerelle” and a joint
release with Alluvial Recordings and FO A RM Projects for Arsenije Jovanovic
entitled, “Galiola – Works For Radio, 1967 – 2000”. I’ve got a very busy year ahead
with a lot of releases planned.
As for my own work, there is a much delayed CD to come out on Cherry Music in
Japan, my first solo vinyl LP (for Elevator Bath), and I’ve been trying to finish tracks
for a 3” disc on The Locus Of (based in the UK), plus tracks for compilations from
Elevator Bath and Yui Onodera’s Critical Path label. There are other works in
progress as well, but nothing else slated for release yet.
Tokafi: What’s your view on the music scene at present? Is there a crisis?
DL: Generally, I believe that there is only a crisis for those who look for a crisis,
and I think that one thing that has kept experimental music from gaining wider
acceptance are the attitudes of self limitation that have been inherent within the
community for a very long time. When people continue to look at their own music
as having a “limited appeal” then this is exactly what they are setting up for
themselves. This doesn’t necessarily mean they have to change their music style;
it just means that by shifting their focus and changing their attitude, they start to
attract conditions that will allow for a different outcome to what they are trying to
accomplish. The reason why I can say this with any kind of confidence is because
of my own experiences in the matter. Granted, some people take pride in the fact
that their work only appeals to a certain group of people, so that would obviously
be their choice.
As for the situation of MP3 blogs giving away entire albums without permission
(regardless of the label or artist’s requests to remove them), while on the surface
this inconsiderate kind of activity seems like it might pose a threat to the financial
support of recording labels and self-releasing artists, I spent time thinking more
about it (after some initial misgivings) and concluded that in the long term, there
is nothing (for me at least) to worry about. Especially in light of what I just said
about shaping your own reality.
Tokafi: Do you see yourself as part of a certain tradition or as part of a movement?
DL: Sure. So far, it appears to be somewhere in the realm of sound art and field
recordings.
Tokafi: What, would you say, are the factors of your creativity? What “inspires” you?
DL: Cinema and natural sonic phenomena are two things that have long inspired
me, but I’m not afraid to admit that other people’s sound work inspires and
somehow informs what I do as well. I don’t buy it when certain artists say they don’t
listen to other artists who work within their own genre. If everyone were so self
absorbed and aloof to what else was going on out there, then none of us would get
anywhere. My belief is that everything we are exposed to has an influence on us
whether we are conscious of it or not. If we like something, then we might
incorporate some aspect of it. If we don’t like something, then we try to stay away
from it. Both situations influence us to make a particular decision about our own
work. This is why my standard answer to this type of question is “everything”.
Tokafi: How would you describe your method of composing?
DL: Some of my best work comes from being in a state of what I term “hypnogogic
mindfulness”, which means that when I drift into a half awake, half meditative
state, my conscious mind gets out of the way and lets things happen. I also work
well in a “stream of conscious” type of way where everything flows quickly,
naturally and without thinking about it.
Tokafi: What does the term „new“ mean to you in connection with music?
DL: It means "something I haven’t heard before”, which is NOT to be confused with
“something that hasn’t been done before” which is a pointless claim to make and a
pointless stance to take. Who’s to say what has never been done before? Yet one
could say that all music is a perpetual evolution or variation of that which came
before it, which would technically render everything as “new”.
Tokafi: Do you feel an artist has a certain duty towards anyone but himself? Or to
put it differently: Should art have a political/social or any other aspect apart from
a personal sensation?
DL: Socially, I believe recording labels that charge money for their releases
should feel a sense of responsibility if they are to serve as trusted filters in deciding
which music (of their chosen genre) to make available to the public. Some would
say that music by nature is “political”, but I think everyone should have the right to
choose whether their work serves that purpose or not. And when I say “political” I
refer to things like elections, national and regional concerns, wars, environmental
issues, civil rights issues, etc.
Tokafi: How, would you say, could non-mainstream forms of music reach wider
audiences without sacrificing their soul?
DL: As I’ve said, I think it begins with what an individual thinks is possible. Forget
about what history or prior experience has shown, or what the so-called “experts in
the field” have to say. It’s really up to the individual and what kind of outcome they
choose to remain focused on. Anything is possible.
Tokfai: You are given the position of artistic director of a festival. What would be
on your program?
DL: Can I dream? Give me the budget and staff to make it happen and and/OAR
(either/OAR & mOAR) would host a festival featuring performances, sound
installations and film. I might invite the following, among others:
(Performances) Oren Ambarchi, Steinbrüchel, Eliane Radigue, Francisco Lopez,
Steve Roden, Billy Gomberg, Yuki Kaneko, Celer, Corey Fuller & Opitope, Kim
Myhr, Kai Fagaschinski, Toshimaru Nakamura, Arve Henriksen, BJ Nilsen, David
Stackenas, Martin Küchen, Matt Shoemaker, Günter Müller/Tomas Korber/Jason
Kahn, Werner Dafeldecker, Ryuichi Sakamoto & Fennesz and or Ryuichi
Sakamoto & Christopher Willits.
(Installations) Rolf Julius, Steve Roden, Christina Kubisch, Brian Eno, Marc
Behrens, CM Von Hausswolff, Akio Suzuki, Miki Yui, Robin Minard, Yannick
Dauby/Wan-Shuen Tsai, Steve Peters, Skoltz_Kolgen.
(Film/Performance) Jurgen Rebel/Thomas Koner, Aono Jikken Ensemble, Ivan
Palacky & Vera Lukasona, Kamran Sadeghi, Akira Rabelais & Stephan Mathieu,
Phill Niblock.
Tokafi: Many artists dream of a “magnum opus”. Do you have a vision of what yours
would sound like?
DL: Nope
LOST TRANSMISSIONS FROM PLANET ZERO - ISSUE 1 (AUTUMN 2006)
LTFPZ: So how did you come up with the and/oar idea?
If am not mistaken earlier it used to be 'oar' solely and then was transformed?
DL: 'OAR' is a referential acronym for a previous label called Overheard And
Rendered. Originally, and/OAR started as a sub-label of Overheard And Rendered,
but it quickly became more active and popular than its parent label, so I
eventually decided to cease operations of "OAR" to focus only on a/O. The main
focus of a/O has always been upon environmental recordings and their use in
various kinds of avant-garde sound art. I also chose the name because I liked the
inclusive nature of the phrase "and/or" in English, as well as the linguistic /
Boolean reference to the word "ear" in languages such as German (ohr), Dutch
(oor), French (oreille), Italian (orecchio), Portugese (orelha), etc.
LTFPZ: How did you get interested in the field recordings genre and really
remember how you were introduced to this 'world'?
DL: As with most people, my first exposure to it was with its use in various kinds of
music genres; and for as long as I've been working with music / sound, I've often
included it in my own productions, but actually, it wasn't until I heard various work
released on the Touch / Ash International labels that I started to disassociate
straight environmental recordings from only being an added effect for music, and
also the somewhat utilitarian use with "new age" or sound effects releases. Along
with that, I started to listen to the world around me with a different perspective;
and on philosophical / spiritual levels, I also found this to have important
relevance as well, hence one of the reasons I started the label. Of course labels
like Folkways had already been doing this for decades, but having discovered work
released by Touch / Ash lead me to go back and investigate older work that had
been outside of my radar range of attention previously.
LTFPZ: Regarding your recordings, you are not a 'purist' but mix your field
recordings with electronics & other media. Can you give me a few details around
your work?
DL: Yes, most of the time, and even most of what sound like straight field
recordings in my work are actually nothing but foley work ("foley work " refers to
creating a particular sound environment out of various unrelated elements. It is a
term mostly used in the film and video game industries). Actually, this is one of the
biggest misconceptions I read in reviews about my work. Writers have thought that
certain passages were straight field recordings, when they are not. But of course, I
take this as an unintended compliment.
LTFPZ: Can you give me some infos on Phonography.org? and/oar has released
(or at least distributes) the site's / mailing list's compilations as well, can you give
me some details around them as well?
DL: From 2001 to 2005 I produced a series of compilations for Phonography.org,
which is an internet resource and info site (with an affiliated discussion forum)
devoted to the art of field recording (or "phonography"). The term literally means
"sound writing", and the general idea can be summed up in the analogy, "as
photography is to the eye, phonography is to the ear." The initial idea was for the
compilations to serve as a vehicle to help get the forum member's work heard. But
guests were also included as time went on. Eventually, the compilations started
gaining interest outside of the forum. The compilations were released and
distributed by me, but the a/O name never appeared on the covers because it was
supposed to be presented as a project of Phonography.org. But after producing 9
compilations (in 4 years), I felt like that particular concept had run its course, plus
I became increasingly too busy with other projects to continue doing it anymore.
LTFPZ: Any people, projects or whatever that have been an influence to you and
your work (both audio & with and/oar)?
DL: In all honesty, if I were to pin down some of the biggest sources of inspiration
for and/OAR as a recording label, I would have to say:
- Touch / Ash International
- ECM
- Criterion (DVD)
- Trente Oiseaux
- Folkways
- 12k / Line
As for my own work, there are too many great and inspiring sound artists to name,
but I will say that the cinema has inspired my various approaches to sound work
more than any sound artist, and I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge a huge
debt to various natural sonic phenomena as well; for these have been largely what
I have aesthetically drawn upon when creating and transforming sound sources
from one thing to another.
LTFPZ: How about the releasing artists of and/oar, how do you come up with the
releases? Any fave of yours so far from the catalogue?
DL: Even though my release schedule is always booked a year in advance, I am
always
vigilantly searching for unique straight environmental work that has rarely or never
been released on CD before; which sadly, does not cross my path very often, so
most of the future schedule consists of composed work. But I am very excited
about the upcoming schedule regardless, with solid work by Michael Northam, a
great multi-artist project curated by Kenneth Kirschner, a second various artist
cinema-inspired project (this one pertaining to Yasujiro Ozu), a straight capture
release dealing with "singing" and "booming" sand by Rob Mullender & Isobel
Clouter, the second live collaboration release of Yannick Dauby & Christophe
Havard, other collaboration releases by Seth Nehil & Matt Marble, and Marc
Behrens & Paulo Raposo, a double CD release by a relatively unknown Japanese
artist named Yui Onodera ( a CD re-issue of his out of print "Entropy" CDR, and a
new full length work), etc, etc.
But as for some personal favorites in the a/O catalog, I would have to say "Fade
With Consequence" by Duul_Drv, "Yours Gray" by Sawako, "Plumbing And
Irrigation Of South Asia" by Quiet American, "The Sun" by Andrew Deutsch,
"Shiso" by Koura, "Location Recordings" by Jon Tulchin, the Andrei Tarkovsky
project, to name but a few.
LTFPZ: So how did you come up with the and/oar idea?
If am not mistaken earlier it used to be 'oar' solely and then was transformed?
DL: 'OAR' is a referential acronym for a previous label called Overheard And
Rendered. Originally, and/OAR started as a sub-label of Overheard And Rendered,
but it quickly became more active and popular than its parent label, so I
eventually decided to cease operations of "OAR" to focus only on a/O. The main
focus of a/O has always been upon environmental recordings and their use in
various kinds of avant-garde sound art. I also chose the name because I liked the
inclusive nature of the phrase "and/or" in English, as well as the linguistic /
Boolean reference to the word "ear" in languages such as German (ohr), Dutch
(oor), French (oreille), Italian (orecchio), Portugese (orelha), etc.
LTFPZ: How did you get interested in the field recordings genre and really
remember how you were introduced to this 'world'?
DL: As with most people, my first exposure to it was with its use in various kinds of
music genres; and for as long as I've been working with music / sound, I've often
included it in my own productions, but actually, it wasn't until I heard various work
released on the Touch / Ash International labels that I started to disassociate
straight environmental recordings from only being an added effect for music, and
also the somewhat utilitarian use with "new age" or sound effects releases. Along
with that, I started to listen to the world around me with a different perspective;
and on philosophical / spiritual levels, I also found this to have important
relevance as well, hence one of the reasons I started the label. Of course labels
like Folkways had already been doing this for decades, but having discovered work
released by Touch / Ash lead me to go back and investigate older work that had
been outside of my radar range of attention previously.
LTFPZ: Regarding your recordings, you are not a 'purist' but mix your field
recordings with electronics & other media. Can you give me a few details around
your work?
DL: Yes, most of the time, and even most of what sound like straight field
recordings in my work are actually nothing but foley work ("foley work " refers to
creating a particular sound environment out of various unrelated elements. It is a
term mostly used in the film and video game industries). Actually, this is one of the
biggest misconceptions I read in reviews about my work. Writers have thought that
certain passages were straight field recordings, when they are not. But of course, I
take this as an unintended compliment.
LTFPZ: Can you give me some infos on Phonography.org? and/oar has released
(or at least distributes) the site's / mailing list's compilations as well, can you give
me some details around them as well?
DL: From 2001 to 2005 I produced a series of compilations for Phonography.org,
which is an internet resource and info site (with an affiliated discussion forum)
devoted to the art of field recording (or "phonography"). The term literally means
"sound writing", and the general idea can be summed up in the analogy, "as
photography is to the eye, phonography is to the ear." The initial idea was for the
compilations to serve as a vehicle to help get the forum member's work heard. But
guests were also included as time went on. Eventually, the compilations started
gaining interest outside of the forum. The compilations were released and
distributed by me, but the a/O name never appeared on the covers because it was
supposed to be presented as a project of Phonography.org. But after producing 9
compilations (in 4 years), I felt like that particular concept had run its course, plus
I became increasingly too busy with other projects to continue doing it anymore.
LTFPZ: Any people, projects or whatever that have been an influence to you and
your work (both audio & with and/oar)?
DL: In all honesty, if I were to pin down some of the biggest sources of inspiration
for and/OAR as a recording label, I would have to say:
- Touch / Ash International
- ECM
- Criterion (DVD)
- Trente Oiseaux
- Folkways
- 12k / Line
As for my own work, there are too many great and inspiring sound artists to name,
but I will say that the cinema has inspired my various approaches to sound work
more than any sound artist, and I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge a huge
debt to various natural sonic phenomena as well; for these have been largely what
I have aesthetically drawn upon when creating and transforming sound sources
from one thing to another.
LTFPZ: How about the releasing artists of and/oar, how do you come up with the
releases? Any fave of yours so far from the catalogue?
DL: Even though my release schedule is always booked a year in advance, I am
always
vigilantly searching for unique straight environmental work that has rarely or never
been released on CD before; which sadly, does not cross my path very often, so
most of the future schedule consists of composed work. But I am very excited
about the upcoming schedule regardless, with solid work by Michael Northam, a
great multi-artist project curated by Kenneth Kirschner, a second various artist
cinema-inspired project (this one pertaining to Yasujiro Ozu), a straight capture
release dealing with "singing" and "booming" sand by Rob Mullender & Isobel
Clouter, the second live collaboration release of Yannick Dauby & Christophe
Havard, other collaboration releases by Seth Nehil & Matt Marble, and Marc
Behrens & Paulo Raposo, a double CD release by a relatively unknown Japanese
artist named Yui Onodera ( a CD re-issue of his out of print "Entropy" CDR, and a
new full length work), etc, etc.
But as for some personal favorites in the a/O catalog, I would have to say "Fade
With Consequence" by Duul_Drv, "Yours Gray" by Sawako, "Plumbing And
Irrigation Of South Asia" by Quiet American, "The Sun" by Andrew Deutsch,
"Shiso" by Koura, "Location Recordings" by Jon Tulchin, the Andrei Tarkovsky
project, to name but a few.
E / I MAGAZINE - ISSUE 6 (WINTER / SPRING 2006)
If essence can adhere to a name, the and/OAR Boolean pun is an apt banner for
this growing family of limited edition CDR (and CD) releases, a broad set of
pleasurable conjunctions, rich disjunctions and propulsive human / environmental
transactions. Curated by artist Dale Lloyd, a former indie-rock musician/producer,
since 2001 the label has released over 30 albums, including nearly ten
compilations with Phonography.org. and/OAR's roster embraces the
"environmental" in a broad context. "We can hear without listening," says Pauline
Oliveros in sympathy. "How we listen creates our life."
*Note: reviews of Sawako: Yours Gray, Dale Lloyd: Semper, Duul_Drv: Fade With
Consequence, John Hudak: Sand Or Stars, Heribert Friedl: Raumzitate, Jos
Smolders: Habitat, Stuart Dodman: You Fill Me, and Dallas Simpson: For Alderney
follow after the segment above. To read these, please visit the individual release
info pages.
If essence can adhere to a name, the and/OAR Boolean pun is an apt banner for
this growing family of limited edition CDR (and CD) releases, a broad set of
pleasurable conjunctions, rich disjunctions and propulsive human / environmental
transactions. Curated by artist Dale Lloyd, a former indie-rock musician/producer,
since 2001 the label has released over 30 albums, including nearly ten
compilations with Phonography.org. and/OAR's roster embraces the
"environmental" in a broad context. "We can hear without listening," says Pauline
Oliveros in sympathy. "How we listen creates our life."
*Note: reviews of Sawako: Yours Gray, Dale Lloyd: Semper, Duul_Drv: Fade With
Consequence, John Hudak: Sand Or Stars, Heribert Friedl: Raumzitate, Jos
Smolders: Habitat, Stuart Dodman: You Fill Me, and Dallas Simpson: For Alderney
follow after the segment above. To read these, please visit the individual release
info pages.
FEAR DROP - ISSUE 10 (AUGUST 2003)
Phonography.org is above all, a website dedicated to phonography (field
recording) with which Marcelo Radulovich gathers resources and information
about composers using that type of recording. To Dale Lloyd (one of the most
active members of the group), a logical step following this involvement was to
release compilations. They are the ideal framework to prove that phonography is
not a genre but is like a main instrument that will be used differently according to
the composers who'll bring it to extremely varied territories.
To this day, five volumes were released (but two new ones are forthcoming) in two
collections: three volumes feature artists from various horizons, whereas the other
two, entitled "Compositions Using Field Recordings", introduce the work of the
group members. Through tracks composed by Richard Lerman, Toy Bizarre,
Murmer, The Beige Channel, Ven Voisey, AS11, John Hudak, Yannick Dauby,
Eric La Casa, Rod Stasick, Doug Haire, Jeff Carey (aka 87 Central), Cal Crawford,
Sawako, Cornucopia (among others equally impassioning), those moments stolen
in time embrace different gestures often singular, mixing musique concrete, dark
ambient, minimalistic electronic... whether they're marked by those genres or
imply their subversion.
In addition, but in another logic, Dale Lloyd created the and/OAR label in order to
give more space to some artists and to his own music made of very dark and
sustained drones, in a play oscillating between proximity and distance ("Eminus"
and "Vulcan Augmented"). An important part is devoted to sonic microscopies,
digitalized abstraction with for instance, the laptop duet Yannick Dauby and
Christophe Havard or "Seismo" the mini CDR release by Rsundin, a sweet and
hardly perceptible combination of pink feedbacks, field recordings, and piano; as
to natural microscopies captured by Andrew Duke (whose "field recordings" one
would swear are reprocessed) or Quiet American whose "Plumbing And Irrigation
Of South Asia" is striking in its scenes which are so detailed that they seem
composed... or in another fashion, in Maggie Payne's "Ping/Pong: beyond the
pail", through sonic vibrations captured thanks to different mics and the various
positions of a bucket under rain.
Reality is much more than what we perceive !
(Jos-Laj Durenn)
translated from French to English by Fabrice Linnsky
Phonography.org is above all, a website dedicated to phonography (field
recording) with which Marcelo Radulovich gathers resources and information
about composers using that type of recording. To Dale Lloyd (one of the most
active members of the group), a logical step following this involvement was to
release compilations. They are the ideal framework to prove that phonography is
not a genre but is like a main instrument that will be used differently according to
the composers who'll bring it to extremely varied territories.
To this day, five volumes were released (but two new ones are forthcoming) in two
collections: three volumes feature artists from various horizons, whereas the other
two, entitled "Compositions Using Field Recordings", introduce the work of the
group members. Through tracks composed by Richard Lerman, Toy Bizarre,
Murmer, The Beige Channel, Ven Voisey, AS11, John Hudak, Yannick Dauby,
Eric La Casa, Rod Stasick, Doug Haire, Jeff Carey (aka 87 Central), Cal Crawford,
Sawako, Cornucopia (among others equally impassioning), those moments stolen
in time embrace different gestures often singular, mixing musique concrete, dark
ambient, minimalistic electronic... whether they're marked by those genres or
imply their subversion.
In addition, but in another logic, Dale Lloyd created the and/OAR label in order to
give more space to some artists and to his own music made of very dark and
sustained drones, in a play oscillating between proximity and distance ("Eminus"
and "Vulcan Augmented"). An important part is devoted to sonic microscopies,
digitalized abstraction with for instance, the laptop duet Yannick Dauby and
Christophe Havard or "Seismo" the mini CDR release by Rsundin, a sweet and
hardly perceptible combination of pink feedbacks, field recordings, and piano; as
to natural microscopies captured by Andrew Duke (whose "field recordings" one
would swear are reprocessed) or Quiet American whose "Plumbing And Irrigation
Of South Asia" is striking in its scenes which are so detailed that they seem
composed... or in another fashion, in Maggie Payne's "Ping/Pong: beyond the
pail", through sonic vibrations captured thanks to different mics and the various
positions of a bucket under rain.
Reality is much more than what we perceive !
(Jos-Laj Durenn)
translated from French to English by Fabrice Linnsky
This page features interviews with and/OAR founder
Dale Lloyd plus a couple short articles.
Dale Lloyd plus a couple short articles.